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'One Has This Feeling of Having Contributed to Something That’s Gone Very Wrong'


Virtual reality pioneer Jaron Lanier.

"Personally, I would give up a lot of the wealth and elite status that we have in order to just live in a friendly, more connected world where it would be easier to move about and not feel like everything else is insecure and falling apart," said virtual reality pioneer Jaron Lanier.

Credit: Brian Ach/Getty Images

Over the last few months, Select All has interviewed more than a dozen prominent technology figures about what has gone wrong with the contemporary internet for a project called "The Internet Apologizes." We're now publishing lengthier transcripts of each individual interview. This interview features Jaron Lanier, a pioneer in the field of virtual reality and the founder of the first company to sell VR goggles. Lanier currently works at Microsoft Research as an interdisciplinary scientist. He is the author of the forthcoming book Ten Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media Accounts Right Now.

You can find other interviews from this series here.

Jaron Lanier: Can I just say one thing now, just to be very clear? Professionally, I'm at Microsoft, but when I speak to you, I'm not representing Microsoft at all. There's not even the slightest hint that this represents any official Microsoft thing. I have an agreement within which I'm able to be an independent public intellectual, even if it means criticizing them. I just want to be very clear that this isn't a Microsoft position.

Noah Kulwin: Understood.
Yeah, sorry. I really just wanted to get that down. So now please go ahead, I'm so sorry to interrupt you.

In November, you told Maureen Dowd that it's scary and awful how out of touch Silicon Valley people have become. It's a pretty forward remark. I'm kind of curious what you mean by that.
To me, one of the patterns we see that makes the world go wrong is when somebody acts as if they aren't powerful when they actually are powerful. So if you're still reacting against whatever you used to struggle for, but actually you're in control, then you end up creating great damage in the world. Like, oh, I don't know, I could give you many examples. But let's say like Russia's still acting as if it's being destroyed when it isn't, and it's creating great damage in the world. And Silicon Valley's kind of like that.

We used to be kind of rebels, like, if you go back to the origins of Silicon Valley culture, there were these big traditional companies like IBM that seemed to be impenetrable fortresses. And we had to create our own world. To us, we were the underdogs and we had to struggle. And we've won. I mean, we have just totally won. We run everything. We are the conduit of everything else happening in the world. We've disrupted absolutely everything. Politics, finance, education, media, relationships — family relationships, romantic relationships — we've put ourselves in the middle of everything, we've absolutely won. But we don't act like it.

We have no sense of balance or modesty or graciousness having won. We're still acting as if we're in trouble and we have to defend ourselves, which is preposterous. And so in doing that we really kind of turn into assholes, you know?

How do you think that siege mentality has fed into the ongoing crisis with the tech backlash?
One of the problems is that we've isolated ourselves through extreme wealth and success. Before, we might've been isolated because we were nerdy insurgents. But now we've found a new method to isolate ourselves, where we're just so successful and so different from so many other people that our circumstances are different. And we have less in common with all the people whose lives we've disrupted. I'm just really struck by that. I'm struck with just how much better off we are financially, and I don't like the feeling of it.

Personally, I would give up a lot of the wealth and elite status that we have in order to just live in a friendly, more connected world where it would be easier to move about and not feel like everything else is insecure and falling apart. People in the tech world, they're all doing great, they all feel secure. I mean they might worry about a nuclear attack or something, but their personal lives are really secure.

And then when you move out of the tech world, everybody's struggling. It's a very strange thing. The numbers show an economy that's doing well, but the reality is that the way it's doing well doesn't give many people a feeling of security or confidence in their futures. It's like everybody's working for Uber in one way or another. Everything's become the gig economy. And we routed it that way, that's our doing. There's this strange feeling when you just look outside of the tight circle of Silicon Valley, almost like entering another country, where people are less secure. It's not a good feeling. I don't think it's worth it, I think we're wrong to want that feeling.

It's not so much that they're doing badly, but they have only labor and no capital. Or the way I used to put it is, they have to sing for their supper, for every single meal. It's making everyone else take on all the risk. It's like we're the people running the casino and everybody else takes the risks and we don't. That's how it feels to me. It's not so much that everyone else is doing badly as that they've lost economic capital and standing, and momentum and plannability. It's a subtle difference.

 

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